Episode Sixteen: Come into my closet, with Suzy Whyte

Suzy: The way I see it, um, and this has taken a few couple of years of therapy to get through this, is I’m not coming out of the closet. I’m allowing people to come in and join me. Um, so I’m letting people in that I want to see me like this and get to know who I am and that side of things.

Jenny: Welcome to Girl Talk with Jenny Raven, episode 16. Into Her Closet with Susie White. So welcome to this podcast with me, Jenny Raven. I’m thrilled to have someone who lives on the same island as me but up in Scotland, Susie White, with us in the studio for what I’m hoping will be a heartfelt but also inspirational storey about living our lives to the very fullest. Susie, how are you doing?

Suzy: Hi, thank you, Jenny. Thank you for having me. I’m looking forward to this. I’ve listened to a few of your podcasts, so thank you for letting me be on.

Jenny: So, well, I’m thrilled that we can explore this conversation because I think you and I have quite a lot in common, and I suspect there’s also things that we are different, which is always a lovely flavour to have. But as you know, if you’ve listened to the podcast, I always start off with some slightly naughty questions to get us into the vibe. So let me just go straight into them. So Susie White, straight away, red or black?

Suzy: Red.

Jenny: PVC or rubber?

Suzy: PVC.

Jenny: Satin or lace?

Suzy: Oh, satin.

Jenny: Stockings, lace top holdups, or a suspender belt?

Suzy: Usually a suspender belt, but I’m wearing lace top holdups today because I’m meeting you.

Jenny: Fantastic. Stockings, 10 denier, 15, or 20?

Suzy: Usually 10 to 15, but I have been known to wear as much as 40.

Jenny: Ideal height of heels?

Suzy: That would depend.

Jenny: Um, let me clarify then. There are two scenarios. Ideal height of heels at work?

Suzy: Um, anywhere between 3-inch and 6.5-inch.

Jenny: Ideal height of heels for Home playtime.

Suzy: 5.

Jenny: Solo, twosome, threesome, or morsome?

Suzy: Really enjoyed threesomes. Um, have been involved in morsomes, but the threesome is much— that was more interesting, shall we say.

Jenny: So if it is a threesome, would that be you and 2 girls, you and 2 boys, or you with one of each?

Suzy: Or one of each.

Jenny: You naughty girl. Okay, so final question. How would you describe yourself?

Suzy: I would say I’m a trans crossdresser. It’s been one of those— this has been part of my journey to try and find out who I am. And I am trans, but I don’t feel like I want to kind of fully transition, but I’m more comfortable presenting as myself, as Susie.

Jenny: I mean, what that really points to is, like me and like so many other people who listen to the podcast, we’re living dual lives. Partly because, you know, I know you’re Gen X just like I am, and, you know, we began life in a world that was unforgiving of the concept of trans, you know, some of the language around it back then. You know, I don’t particularly get offended by, but You know, I would have characterised myself back then as a tranny. And I think that probably I’ll still take that one. I’m still quite happy with that one. But, you know, the whole notion of dual lives, like myself, you have begun the journey of kind of at least trying to integrate Susie into your main life and perhaps even move more into Susie. So, tell us about how that’s, how that’s gone for you.

Suzy: Been a mix of ups and downs with it, as you can imagine. When I took the plunge and came out to somebody at work, it went very well. They were very supportive. And then, you know, a few weeks later, they actually saw me on camera. As Susie, and that kind of did help, along with being in therapy, which I’ve been in therapy now for over 4 years. Um, so that, that’s all, that all kind of helps. I came out to somebody at the back end of 2021, um, came out to my partner at the start of ’22, which did not go down well. Um, and it’s, it’s an ongoing problem. Um, and she doesn’t know that I am actually out at work, or that a large number of my friends are aware and have seen me, um, like this. So that’s been challenging, um, but on the positive side for that is it’s allowed me to explore a lot more of myself, um, and be more of who I am, um, which has been liberating, but has had its downside as well. People, if they’re considering, you know, coming out to the— you don’t come out once, you come out several times. You’re, you’re telling people over and over again. So it’s— and you’ve— I felt personally very vulnerable when I was doing it, um, because you don’t know what reaction you’re going to get from a lot of people. And I’m lucky the company that I work for have got a very good LGBTQ+ network. And so I connected with them first and they helped me through coming out more if I wanted to. So yes, there’s been, it’s had its good points, it’s had its bad points, but on the whole, I’m glad I did it. But yeah, there’s been some difficulties and challenges.

Jenny: Let’s just talk about, I don’t know whether you recall the very first moment, you know, the very first person you fully let Susie out with, and what was that moment like?

Suzy: To, to be honest, it was a spur of the moment thing. It wasn’t planned. I was talking with somebody at work who was going through a bit of a rough time, and they were worried about confiding in somebody. So I just took the decision and showed them a picture of me. And basically said, if this makes it any easier, this is me. And that kind of allowed us to grow closer and then be able to try and talk things through, and not just my stuff but their stuff as well. They were very supportive, and I was able to talk to them about a lot of different things around, you know, being trans. Or— and, oh, my hands were shaking, let’s be honest. I was, I was pretty much shitting it, um, because I had no idea whether or not they were going to be able to accept it, how they would accept it, if, you know, or if they would go and run off and start just telling everybody, you know. So I felt scared and vulnerable, um, but, you know, I, I shouldn’t— oh, I’m saying I shouldn’t have, but the reaction was so positive, it really did kind of give me a lift. And give me a boost that somebody was prepared to accept me regardless of how I was dressed or how I looked or anything like that. So that was just so uplifting, enlightening, liberating, shall we say.

Jenny: I understand this very clearly, you know, being Gen X as well, you know, decades and decades of fear and terror of being discovered and what would what would follow from that. And I remember characterising it as somebody was talking to me about, you know, it’s not good to lie to your partner about stuff. And I was like, I get that and I totally agree with that, but I’m in the world of like, I’m lying by, you know, keeping some secrets in order to survive. It’s not like an uncomfortable feeling. For me, it was about literal survival. So how did it feel once you kind of crossed that threshold and the truth is out?

Suzy: Um, so when I got together with my partner, I had thought that Susie was dead and buried. Um, back at the end of 2015, I’d been on a load of antidepressants, and basically I did the full purge. Everything, everything went. And, you know, it’s one of those points, as you say, you know, growing up in the west of Scotland in the ’80s, um, you know, you were kind of told there was a cure, in very commas, for these types of things, you know. And so you, when you’ve been on antidepressants and it really does fuck with your brain, it really does, um, I kind of took this of being, oh, I am cured, right? So the bollocks, you know, there is no cure, there doesn’t need to be a cure. Everybody is who they are. But when you’ve grown up in that type of indoctrination, you think you’re cured. And we got together and there was no sign of anything. There was no clothes, no wigs, no nothing. Everything was gone. But it was about 3 years later, just before COVID as you said before in your podcast, little things start sparking in the back of your mind. And all of a sudden, I had a dress, I had a wig, I had makeup. I don’t even remember ordering stuff, you know. It’s been— I just, it kind of— I did it and it all appeared, but I can’t actually remember taking the conscious decision to do it. Um, and then obviously COVID hit. But so yes, when I got to my partner, I don’t feel I wasn’t lying because I didn’t believe— I believed Susie was dead and buried, and I believe that she was gone for good. And that was, no, that’s wrong. Um, but so when I did come out to her, yes, I had been back dressing again for about 18 months properly. Um, and it’s, it’s tough because she doesn’t want to see me like this and she doesn’t want to know anything about it. Um, so that is, that’s hard to take. Um, but speaking with a number of other girls in a similar situation. They’ve got partners that are exactly the same, you know, they don’t want anything to do with it, but they accept that you are different in whatever way that is, you know. Um, so it’s, it’s just, you know, it was— so I, I didn’t say I was lying to her because at the start I wasn’t. Susie was dead. But, um, when I did come out to her, and I wasn’t ready to come out to her, to be honest, um, she thought I was having an affair with somebody. And I kind of— this is when it just blurted out. So that kind of certainly was a conversation stopper, shall we say. Um, and it took a long, long while before we were able to kind of approach the subject again.

Jenny: And what about ex-partners, you know, before your current partner, did— how did it go down with them, or was it hidden?

Suzy: It was hidden. Um, I was, what, nearly 20 years with my ex, and it was completely hidden. I mean, yeah, I did have some stockings, I had some suspender belts, but nothing more. And it was, what, 2008 when, you know, Susie finally burst onto the screen That’s when I, you know, first experimented with makeup, uh, with wigs. Got my first pair of heels, which were, um, 5-inch black suede stilettos. Um, don’t start small, I have to go big. And, um, yeah, that’s— but it was kind of easy to hide it because my ex wouldn’t go into the loft because she was afraid of heights. So that’s where everything was, out the way in the loft, and she couldn’t get she wouldn’t go in there. So, um, she almost caught me once, and that did scare the crap out of me, and I kind of didn’t dress up again for months after that because it just, it shook me. And, but no, she never caught me.

Jenny: It’s really sad, isn’t it? Something that is so both benign and harmless and fundamental to our entire being is so vilified, shamed, misunderstood, a whole host of negative reasons, you know, ranging from just not understanding to, you know, cultural or even religious kind of like intolerance. It really does, it does make me sad because it is so unbelievably harmless at the end of the day. I understand it’s an adjustment. I understand it’s very hard for some people to go, “Oh, okay, you were that and now you are this.” I mean, for some context, my ex-partner of, you know, 20 years ago, when we were together for 3 years, I met with her recently and she’s now a man and she’s fully transitioned. And it was weird, it was genuinely weird. But only weird for about 90 seconds, and then everything just adjusted, and then it was completely fine because actually it was exactly the same person. And I was— all I really had to do was just say, I have to accept reality as it is, not how I would like it to be. And that’s, you know, that would be the message I would love, you know, for partners who are struggling is is to just play with it for a bit. And it’s not like, you know, we— you need to buy into like as a total— I mean, for some people it is a complete, you know, shift and change. But for most of us, you know, we’re sitting on the in-between, you know, with this male presenting sometimes, female presenting other times. And we’ll make our choices based on a whole host of reasons. But when we are choosing to female present, it’s not such a big deal if you sat on the sofa watching Netflix. And the more you can kind of adjust to it and get used to it, life becomes so much easier. And I suppose that kind of extends, like, you know, my partner’s fantastic, but my family, not so much. And that seems to be another common pattern, and I think that’s possibly because our identity is so deeply and profoundly ingrained in the structure of that entity known as the family. How has that experience been for you?

Suzy: So, uh, my family don’t know. I’ve not come out to them. I don’t plan on coming out to them. Um, they are rather caught up in religion And I, you know, to be honest, I have no relationship with my brother. Basically, he has a lot of his views don’t align with mine, shall we say. And that’s not somebody I want to be around. You know, that’s so I think I see him maybe once a year, or at most twice. But I have no other contact with them. And I think my parents are elderly, um, other families, you know, and the whole wider family. I’m the second youngest, my brother’s younger than me, um, and they, you know, it’s not something I really want to discuss with them at all. It’s more I, I’m allowing— the way I see it, um, and this has taken a few, couple of years of therapy to get through this, is I’m not coming out of the closet, I’m allowing people to come in and join me. Um, so I’m letting people in that I want to be inside me and see me like this and get to know who I am and that side of things. So, um, when I did finally come out at work, um, which was rather interesting on a conference call with 700 people, Um, there was, um, there was a lot of, um, love emojis and care emojis coming through as I was talking because I was talking about Trans Awareness Week back at the, um, the back end of 2023. Um, and I volunteered to do it. Um, and the, you know, the person arranging it said, look, if you if you don’t, if you want to be female presenting or male presenting, I, doesn’t bother me, it’s entirely up to you. And I thought, that’s fine, I’ll do it as a male, do it as a male. I got up in the morning, boom, there we go. And, you know, came out to 700 people, um, and yeah, I did get a lot of, um, comments afterwards, supportive comments, I’ll say, you know, that was everybody that contacted me was supportive. And then I had to do, I didn’t have to do it, but then I decided to do another, I was asked to do another one for another department for 500 people. And it was like, hello, you know, this is me. And again, it was positive, but I was, my voice was breaking. I was shaking, nervous. I was terrified. You know, that was 700 people followed by 500 people, you know. And to be fair, every single one of them has respected my privacy in that. So, you know, there’s not been posts on Facebook or on Twitter, you know, everybody’s respected my privacy to allow me to, um, come out as I feel, as I see fit. And so that, that, that has been a huge positive in it. Um, but it’s, but it was a few months later before I finally took the steps to go into the office. Um, and that was— I wouldn’t say it was a bad experience because everybody made me feel welcome, but I didn’t feel right. There was something about me that didn’t feel right when I went into the office that first time. But as I say, everybody, everybody accepted me, took— you know, yes, it was difficulty, and some poor sod walked into a wall, um, because they turned to look and were was like, what, looking at me, and then suddenly walked into a wall. Um, not that it was— it was just a shock. They were used to seeing some bloke in, you know, jeans and a shirt, and suddenly it’s a dress and— well, it was kitten heels and a wig. So, you know, that it was a shock there. Um, but they really made me feel welcome, um, and made me feel like this was not going to be a problem.

Jenny: Do you think, um, some of that discomfort you felt was because you’re— I suppose your autopilot, your identity— and I don’t mean identity in, in the way that we talk about trans identities, I mean you’re kind of like work identity— has a, a masculine way of being, and so there was a kind of like a weird disconnect You know, not passing any judgement or just trying to understand, really, because I understand that as well. I really, like, there are times where, like, Jenny would not be appropriate for me, and there are times when she’s very appropriate. And I can see you grinning and chuckling away, and like the idea of taking Jenny, like, fully to work. Is a bit like pulling a pin out of a hand grenade. Granted, when the hand grenade went off, it would be full of pink butterflies, but nonetheless, it would be a hand grenade.

Suzy: I think what the problem was for me, and I’d spoken to a couple of people in the work about, you know, coming in, they were up for it, and I was like trying to work out what to wear, and somebody has suggested this black wool dress I have. And, you know, this is April ’24, and I’ve not worn the dress since, by the way. That’s the other thing. I wore this black wool dress that was sat below the knee, and I had, um, black opaque stockings, suspender belt, um, and small kitten heels. I didn’t feel that I was presenting myself the way I felt I wanted to present myself, and I think it’s because it’s a nice dress, I like the dress, but I felt that that dress just wasn’t making me feel like me. And this, the second time I went in, which was 3 months later, I had a grey top similar to this black one I’m wearing today, um, a sort of light burgundy pinkish, um, pencil mini skirt and black patterned tights with 3-inch heels. Oh my God, that felt so much better. It felt more— I felt more alive because that to me was more my style. Um, so yeah, the same miniskirt, it wasn’t that— it sits, you know, just below mid-thigh, but it just felt so much more— this is more me. And that evening we went into Edinburgh to, um, for a night out, which was the first time I’d been in a non-trans and non-crossdresser environment as myself. And to be fair, everybody looked after me, but I was crapping at that. But it just felt more like who I was, being able to, you know, wear 3-inch heels and a skirt above the knee and just something a bit tighter. And so that was a much more positive experience, and I was— I felt more me. In that respect. I think if that’s making sense, but I just didn’t feel like myself that first time I went in.

Jenny: It makes total sense. And I’ve all, you know, I, I, I understand that I have different personalities, and you want to choose the right personality for the right experience. Some of those are leadership personalities, some of them are submissive and playful, some of them I mean, Jenny is— she’s an outrageous flirt and she is very dangerous in certain scenarios. So I just— I would really not take her. I would not allow her out in certain scenarios because it would just get me into trouble. And, you know, maybe that trouble will be a lot of fun, but I have to think about the totality of my life as well, not just about the immediate visceral fun that I would have in the moment, which would be delicious and delightful. Um, so, you know, and it’s funny how, you know, you characterised it as well with the clothes that, you know, one set of clothes wasn’t vibing and the other was. And again, I, I totally understand that. And I think that’s something a lot of, um, like the— a lot of masculine energy, like that, you know, masculine energy does know how to look fabulous and amazing and all, you know, all, all of those things. But the feminine energy understands, like, there’s like so much more colours in the rainbow of, of that. And it’s not just the way that the clothes look, it’s also the way that they feel, um, and how, you know, touches the skin and how the skin interacts with the fabric, and sometimes the fabric on the fabric, and how electrifying all of that can be. Almost to the point where it’s difficult to operate because the experience and the sensation is so outrageously overwhelming. And then to have that supported by people around you is so— it’s almost— for me personally, I find it emotionally overwhelming. And, you know, I don’t understand how gorgeous women don’t dress a particular way, like 24/7, 365, because if I could, I would. Yeah. And so, overall, your experience at work has been incredibly positive, it sounds.

Suzy: Yes. It’s, although I did get dress coded one time, I did get into trouble for one outfit I was wearing, but I didn’t think there was anything wrong with it. A lot of people complimented it, but somebody did complain to HR that the skirt with the boots was overly sexualized.

Jenny: Well, I would take that as a tremendous compliment.

Suzy: Well, I was telling a woman at work, and because she had been— we’d been talking about shoes because she had a pair of shoes that I wanted. And I had them in a different, I had them different colour to what she had. But we were talking and I showed her the picture of the outfit and I said, oh yes, I get dress coded for that. Well, she just went absolutely apeshit about the fact somebody had the audacity to complain about what she thought was a perfectly good, fabulous outfit. You know, she was more offended than I was, but I was like, oh, I’ll take that. And But yes, it has been a positive experience. I am aware about what you said about, you know, Jenny potentially getting you into trouble. There’s been a couple of times I’ve maybe been a wee bit too, I wouldn’t say flirtatious at work, but one of your recent posts. Has had about learning to cross your legs. And I was talking to a person at the office one time, and I wasn’t meant to be in that day, so I had to rush in because technical problems. And I was wearing quite a short skirt with, I think it was green tights. And somebody asked me a question, I sat down opposite them, and their eyes went straight to my legs. So they were talking to my legs, I was talking to their face. so I kind of crossed them and recrossed them a few times, and I could see him sitting a wee bit, shall we say, uncomfortable in his seat. Um, so I kind of did it again, but the skirt rode up a little bit more. So I get what you’re saying about, um, Jenny getting you into trouble. I’ve done that a couple of times at work, and, um, yes, it could have got me into trouble. So yes, I get it.

Jenny: Yeah, it’s definitely a real thing. Let’s just backtrack if you can for a moment and talk about your journey with therapy. I’m sure you’re aware I put myself into therapy a few years ago. I was in for about a year. But what has your been— what’s your experience been like? And, you know, would you recommend it? I guess, you know, one of the things we’re talking about and I’d like to become like the focus of this particular episode is advice for people who feel stuck, um, like not living their full life, not living their best life, not living their feminine life, and how to approach integrating as much as they feel comfortable with. And for me, therapy was a big part of that, and it sounds like that was the same for you.

Suzy: It was. I was in another deep depression, um, you know, suicidal depression. We’re talking, you know, close a couple of times to just trying to end it all. And my partner had been, you know, trying to get me to go into therapy just to find out what the problem was. Um, and I, I contacted a therapist, um, and that was diabolical. I was in a wor— after having a meeting with them, I was in a worse state than what I was when before I started. But somebody put me onto a few other therapists that had been around. So I contacted one who was based in Edinburgh. We had a conversation and I immediately felt better than I had done. So basically set up regular weekly sessions. And it’s been a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. Um, there’s been some laughter in there as well. Um, there, it’s, to be honest, if I had been going through therapy in 2014, 2015 rather than antidepressants, I would probably, um, have come out back then, to be honest. Therapy doesn’t work for everybody. I’m aware of that. But if that is something, you need to find the right therapist. You need to find somebody that you feel you can work with, somebody that you feel you can trust, somebody who’s not going to project their unconscious agenda, shall we say, because they’re not there to try and judge you, but, you know, people do judge. So you need to find somebody you feel that you can work with that’s not going to push you down a certain route or try and stop you going down a certain route. Somebody that will challenge you, because by God, does she challenge me. You know, I’ll be honest, there have been times I’ve gone, well, fuck you, you know. But yeah, it’s somebody that you feel that you can just be open with without any fear of retribution or judgment. And the first, the hardest stage for me through therapy was not coming out to my therapist or appearing on camera or at our office as Susie. The hardest part was me being able to accept this is who I am. And that’s not, you know, accepting that I am trans was— sorry, admitting I was trans was easy. Accepting it, that was very, very difficult. Um, and it’s down to society norms rather than anything else. It’s society’s norms and what they believe is men should be men, women should be women. You know, they don’t believe, um, that, you know, gender is a sliding scale and everybody is different. But it took me 7, 8 months of therapy to be able to accept who I was, which then allowed me to start then trying to understand who Susie is. Um, and yes, um, I go to work like this. Sometimes I go to work male presenting. Um, I tend to wear colourful clothes, although not today, to be honest. But I tend to wear a lot more bright colors— yellows, greens, reds. Um, whereas male presenting, it was always black or blue, right? There was nothing else. Just being able to understand who I am and accept who I am and grow as to who I am. You know, the other thing I would say is there are a lot of very supportive people, people who are willing to help you, talk to you, sometimes give you advice, you know, tell you. So, it is a very scary place because the people that make it scary are the ones with the loudest voices. Um, but that’s just my, that’s just my experience. Um, and everybody has different experiences. And, but yes, I think it was, for me, it was under, it was being able to admit it, accept it, and then start to understand that that’s how therapy’s worked for me. Um, over the last 4 years, and I’m, you know, I’m still going through it. It’s not a, it’s not a quick fix for me. For some people, 6 months, a year, 2 years. Some people are in it for decades. Um, you have to make it work for you and be prepared to accept there will be a lot of tears. There will be a lot of tears. There will be a lot of hard work.

Jenny: Yeah, we all, we all carry that cognitive dissonance from childhood of We learn that the way of the world is this particular way. And even through 20s and 30s, you kind of carry that and you continue in that. And it’s only later in life that I started to start, I wouldn’t say radically rethinking, but really questioning. And even now, I still feel that cognitive dissonance and sometimes how I automatically think or automatically react, and then I have to pull myself back and say, hang on a minute, that’s, that’s not what I intellectually know to be true now, but, and it’s not even what I feel to be true, but there’s just this kind of like hardwired way of being. There’s very, very difficult to, to, to shirk. But that really interestingly kind of leads into my next question, which was actually a really big question for me as well, which is why now? Because I, you know, I knew when I was 5, and we were talking earlier, you knew when you were 7, or you at least knew something was different. But, you know, that’s decades ago. So, why has Susie demanded to be part of your life now and not at another time in your life?

Suzy: I don’t think she’s demanded to be part of my life now. She demanded to be part of my life years ago. I wasn’t listening. Um, I, back in 2008, um, when I was still in my 30s, a long time ago, I, I signed up for, uh, my website. It doesn’t exist anymore, but it was called Tranny International, right? That’s what it was called. And that’s the first time Susie had a name. Right, that was the first time I had, I had a name. And it was, uh, it was more of a support site rather than, you know, because there’s other sites out there which are contact sites for sex, and I’ve used them in the past and they’re good for what they do. This one was much more of a— somebody once described it as, and I don’t like using the word, but someone once described it as Facebook for trannies. That’s how they described it. Um, and it was a mixture of people, um, some who had been out for decades, some that were like me who were just kind of starting to find their, their feet, so to speak. And I got a lot of advice on, on makeup, um, because the first time I tried it, I looked like Koko the Clown, you know. There was big red spots and, you know, it was awful, right? It was, you know, it was something you would see in a horror movie. It Oh, but people there, I was able to share pictures. They were telling me what to do, how to do different things, working out around, you know, um, bra sizes. You know, I knew absolutely bugger all about a bra. That was, that was a journey that I was going on at that time. Um, I was going through the starts of what was a very long breakup, but at that time it was still more of a sexual kick, you know. I’ll be brutally honest, um, it was a case of getting dressed up, stocking suspenders, high heels, wehey, um, and some fun in the bedroom. And, you know, that, that was what it pretty much felt like, um, for years. Um, but when finally broke up, start of 2013, um, I explored this side of me more. And I think that’s what’s, that’s what caused the, you know, what I call my great purge of 2015, because basically I felt Susie was taking over and I just had this massive panic attack. I was on antidepressants and they’d also given me diazepam or whatever it is as well. So, um, I was, you know, at times I felt completely, as they say, off your tits and I just, um, felt that Susie was to blame for everything, right? I blamed Susie for absolutely everything. Um, and so I killed her off because that was to me at that time, the root of my, all my problems, right? It was bollocks. It really is. Um, but society norms and growing up and, you know, I grew up at a time when you had things like, are you being served in a loo, a loo on where men dressed as women for comic effect. That’s what they did. They dressed for comic effect. That’s kind of how I, that’s how it made me feel at that time. So no, Suzie has been there for a long, long time, but I only started listening to her, you know, in 2021. That’s when I started to listen. So, um, as to why I started listening, I have absolutely no idea. Um, but it just felt more powerful than it had ever been before, and I wanted to share it. That’s what I wanted. I can’t explain why that I felt like that, but that’s exactly how it made me feel. I wanted to be seen, and it’s, yeah, so it’s, as you say, why now? Um, I don’t know, but I started to listen to what my heart was saying, not what society was saying, and not what my brain was saying. It was kind of what was in my heart at that time. Um, and it, you know, it still makes me emotional thinking about it, but it’s just kind of, this is who I am. And, um, sometimes I’m flirtatious, sometimes I’m cheeky, sometimes I’m naughty, sometimes I’m professional. It’s, um, I just feel that I can be all of those things as myself, right, and not hide that away.

Jenny: Yeah, so much to unpack there. And, um, I’ve been haunted by the question of why now? And the way I’ve rationalised that is— and the way I remember talking to my therapist, it’s like, if not now, when? Am I going to wait for next year? I’m getting older. And there’s a point where I could see the end of the tunnel. I mean, you can always see the end of the tunnel, but usually for a large part of your life, it’s just a tiny pinprick at the end. But suddenly the tunnel got a bit bigger, and I’m like, wow, I’ve got to deal with this. Otherwise, I don’t want to be that person lying on my deathbed saying, if only, if ‘If only I’d done that thing.’ And my experience has been almost entirely positive and fun. And I’m stealing your characterization of like, ‘I’m not going out into the world, you’re all coming into my closet,’ because that’s exactly what I’m doing. I am sticking a toe out into the world here and there, but definitely it is invitation into my closet. Oh, so that’s a brilliant and very, very resonant characterization. I’m, yeah, I, you know, I jokingly, I was chatting with Hélène Noir the other day and jokingly commented that actually my girl wardrobe is bigger than my boy wardrobe. I mean, not just a bit bigger, but significantly bigger. There’s so much more, so much more in it. I wanted to talk about my books as well, because, you know, I like to do that where possible. And I know you recently listened to the audiobook for the first time. What was that experience like for you?

Suzy: It took me 3 attempts to get through it because I kept stopping. You can imagine why.

Jenny: We can be honest.

Suzy: Okay. Yeah. Um, it made me orgasm several times. So I’ve— it’s one of those things, um, the buildup. I, it was just the— I listened. I always feel books like that are better listened to, especially when it’s done with, uh, you know, a sexy voice, you know. Um, and it’s, you know, slow buildups, building up sensation, building up atmosphere, you know, and it was extremely hot, you know, I absolutely loved it. I just haven’t had a chance yet to get around to listening to the second one, but that’s on the, that’s definitely on the list because it was, I was lying in the bed and it was like, oh, you know, it’s hot in here. And yes, that sometimes Sasha, oh yes, as you say, wouldn’t mind a go with them, tell you that.

Jenny: I sometimes, I start writing and quite literally characters from other storeys just demand to be part of the new story. And Sasha is, she’s like a force of nature that just comes crashing in. She wasn’t even in the storey until I literally put her in the storey because I could feel her. I don’t want to spoil what happens, But, you know, it was going along very nicely, and then she was just kind of banging at the door saying, “Let me in.” So I thought, “OK, well, let me in.” And she was very, very naughty. And Ruby is another character everybody, you know, I get a lot of feedback about because she’s so just deliciously wonderful.

Suzy: Yes.

Jenny: But yes, I’ll take all that feedback, darling. Thank you so much.

Suzy: No, no, it was— It was, it was hot. Um, and yes, it was, yes, very sexy. Uh, I loved it. And I think what makes it, from stuff I’ve read in the past, what makes this one unique is it’s not, you know, wham bam thank you. It’s, it’s a build-up to it. There’s a, it’s drawing you into that world. It’s, you know, so it’s very much an erotic storey with smut in it rather than being a smutty storey with some erotica. It’s very— to me anyway, it comes across very much as an erotic storey with smut thrown in just at the right point.

Jenny: Right. Again, you know, I was chatting with Ellen Noir about this, and erotic is a good, really good word. Erotic, sensual, is good words because that is what it feels to be feminine to me. Is like, I, I have masculine energy, of course I do, and that feels very sexual and, you know, a desire to get to orgasm. Whereas the erotic and the sensual is more like edging, is more like I just want to stay in this delicious state of hyperarousal for as long as I possibly can. And, um, and that’s what wearing clothes and being in my feminine gives me access to. It’s possibly one of the reasons why my partner is, you know, happy when I’m in my feminine, because, you know, sexual encounters tend to last much longer and, and are extended and stretched out, um, which just makes for more fun, of course. Um, even I’m getting a little bit A little bit toasty now.

Suzy: It’s certainly, yeah, yeah, it’s certainly it. And it’s like the same with me when, you know, there are days I’ve gone into the office and I’ve worn a flared skirt, but I’ve got stockings and suspenders underneath as opposed to tights. Um, and it’s, it’s that difference knowing that I’m wearing something that I, I consider to be sexy or a little bit naughty. that nobody else knows I’m wearing them. Um, and I think, and again, when I’m— if I’m wearing a pencil skirt, I’ll have, um, usually fancy tights on. I get— I order tights online and, um, got lots of different colors, different styles, different patterns. And, um, it’s been— which has also been another area where they, they’ve got a Facebook group of where you can share pictures, and it’s, you know, men and women and trans people, crossdressers, all sharing pictures of them in, in the tights or skirts or whatever. And it’s another area that has very much been a positive factor in helping my confidence grow. But people have contacted me and said that seeing my pictures has helped their confidence grow, which to me was like, I was in shock that that’s how, um, some women actually saw— when they saw me, they felt that they wanted to do something similar and started to be bolder with what they wore and gave them confidence. And it was like, that, that was very humbling for me. I just didn’t expect anything like that. I’ve had a lot of comments, people telling me that you know, they— I’ve just— because I’ve shared my pictures and somebody that is, you know, trans crossdresser has given women and others the opportunity to feel that they can be who they want to be as well. Um, it was like, shocked me, but I’ll take it.

Jenny: I think that’s the positive message in, in the whole conversation, and it’s what I’m trying to do you know, with my stories, with my website, with my podcast, with my socials, is to normalise who we are, however we are, so that the more diversity we see in the world, the less surprised we are by that diversity. And I have to say, the younger generation are brilliant. They, they seem to be utterly unfazed by anything. You can literally be anything and anyone you want, and they will They will vigorously fight for your right to, to be that person, and I think that’s just a wonderful thing. Um, and I, I, I only wish, you know, you and I had had that experience when we were 12 and 15 and when it really mattered, you know, that, that moment of identifying your sexuality and, and then feeling like you were forced into a box and you never really felt right, the box that you were for forced into, and therefore, you know, things were difficult and challenging. So yeah, I think, you know, we’re living into a new era.

Suzy: The box analogy is a good one because I flipped that one on its head a few years ago because I’m a big fan of sci-fi. Star Trek, Doctor Who, Star Wars, you know, always felt that Growing up when, you know, you’re a, you feel alone and lonely when that, you know, things like Star Trek made me feel like I had friends when I had none in real life. Um, but this analogy of being in the box is I looked at it from the point of the view of the TARDIS. Why would I want to be outside the box? The box is bigger on the inside. I’m bigger on the inside. I bring people into my TARDIS, so to speak. It’s infinite on the inside. You know, if you want to be on the outside, fine, but I’ll let you in. And it’s much more fun.

Jenny: Yeah.

Suzy: It’s much more fun on the inside.

Jenny: Okay. Well, I think we’re, we’re drawing to a close now. My final question is, you know, what advice, I suppose I could ask you for it, what advice would you offer someone in a similar situation? But let’s make it a little bit more personal. And what advice would you offer yourself? Maybe when you were a teen or maybe when you’re in your 30s, it doesn’t really matter. What advice would you offer yourself about your journey and how best to live your life?

Suzy: Um, the, the first thing would be to accept myself for who I am. You know, the clothes don’t change me, but it’s being able to accept yourself. That’s the, the biggest piece of advice I can say, because until you accept yourself, you can’t accept anything else. Um, oh, sorry, personally speaking, that was, um, and once I found that inner acceptance, I was able to allow myself to grow. There’s a lot of really, really good, genuine, nice, proper people out there who are happy to see trans people, crossdressers, you know, anybody. They’re happy to accept them, accept us all. But, um, you know, it’s— I think for, yeah, for me it’s definitely been self-acceptance, and then that’s allowed me to open the door and start to, to bring people in. That’s probably for me, if I could say back to myself and as a 13-year-old putting on a pair of my mother’s tights and saying This is not wrong. This is natural. This is just who you are. Please accept yourself because you will have a much happier life if you, the minute you do.

Jenny: Very wise words. Well, look, thank you so much for chatting with me. How can people find you? Because you have an Instagram, which is a private one, I know, but people can find you. How can we find you?

Suzy: So, I’m on Instagram. It’s Miss Susie White, um, both with a Y. Um, so it’s a Y in the Susie and a Y in the White. Um, that was just me being pretentious more than anything else. Um, and you know, I am on, I am on Facebook, um, but I tend to share more stuff on Flickr. And again, it’s, you’ll find it as Miss Susie White. Um, there’s, I tend to share more pictures on Flickr than, than anybody else at the minute. Um, and the pictures are, um, they’re public, so, you know, anybody can, anybody can view them. Not the, not the naughty ones, they’re, they’re, they’re for followers only. But, um, yeah, you’ll find me on Flickr, Instagram, and Facebook.

Jenny: Fantastic. Well, we’ll put links in the body text of the, um, of the podcast. Thank you so much. I’ve really enjoyed our time together, and I can’t wait to get this one post-produced and up.

Suzy: Thank you so much for having me.

Jenny: Thank you, girls, for listening to my podcast. I really appreciate you listening all the way through to the end. If you’ve enjoyed what you’ve heard, then please consider going over to my website at JennyRaven.com and join my mailing list. Then you’ll get information about all of my very, very naughty things that I send out on a regular basis. You’ll also get access to a couple of my free stories. You can either read them, or better still, you can experience them as an audio journey where I will directly encourage you to dress up for me in your favourite costume and do very, very, very unspeakably naughty things. I can’t wait for you to send me photos of that experience with me, so please do join up at JennyRaven.com.