Episode Fifteen: Madeline Thomas From Image Angel

Jenny: Welcome to Girl Talk with Jenny Raven, episode 15, Madeline Thomas from Image Angel. So welcome to this podcast with me, Jenny Raven. I’m thrilled and delighted, as ever, I always am, to record a podcast, but this one is a little bit different because there’s an important message in it and there’s a very important call to action that I would dearly love all the listeners and to get involved with because it involves keeping our community safe, our family, our tribe, however you want to describe it, into this ever evolving digital world that we find ourselves living into. So I’d just like to welcome our guest, Madeline Thomas. Madeline, how are you doing?

Madeline: Hi. I’m really good, thank you. Thanks for having me here.

Jenny: I’m delighted. And like I said, you know, the more I dove into your journey and the platform and the technology you’ve built, the more I understand the vital importance of your work and how important it is that we all get on board and support you, because we need a single solution for all platforms. But why don’t you tell us a little bit about imageangel and what it does and why it’s important?

Madeline: Yeah, I’ll just give a brief overview and then maybe we can go into a bit more detail later. But essentially, there’s lots of crimes happening on sex workspaces and lots of soft harms happening, but also lots of pain that people are going through when they find that their content has either been misused, resold, or is being used against them for reasons of harassment and doxing. And I set about to make a change in that space. So I worked with a tech developer to use a system called forensic watermarking, which is already very popular in sports broadcasting in Hollywood. And the tech very simply adds user data into images, videos, or live streams that are received on their device. So if you are a buyer of content, your data very, very carefully will be hidden into that content. So if you do something bad with that, we can take action against you.

Jenny: Okay, so effectively, that means if I put an image of myself on the Internet, on a platform that supports it, there’s like a digital fingerprint that goes along with that. So if somebody then abuses that image or does something that is outside of our consent, that there is a pathway back to that person for whatever action should be appropriate.

Madeline: Yeah, absolutely. So if you’re on a dating app, for example, or you’re sharing your saucy pictures on a kinkpot positive sight, you want to be free to express yourself in a way that feels natural to you. And freedom of expression is very important in Retaining kind of your own agency and your sovereignty and your own self. And that’s also really important in, like online safety regulation spaces. We want to make sure people can still express themselves. So instead of saying, well, don’t send that, what we say is, feel free to be yourself, but if something goes wrong, will be able to help you. Should something go wrong, we’ll be able to look into the image or the video and we’ll tell you, not you. We won’t tell you, but we will tell the right people at the right time what has been shared, when and who did it.

Jenny: Right. And it’s important to note that this isn’t something that I as a user have to do. I don’t have to download any software, I don’t have to pay any money to do it. The idea is that it’s built into the platform and the platform handles it all as part of their duty of care to their customers.

Madeline: Yeah. And actually in our conversations with platforms, we’re finding that the really big platforms in sex and adult spaces are very welcoming of this because they already do care. I mean, it perhaps may come across as strange for someone to go, what do you mean? They care about me as a user. But compared to the larger social media platforms, they’re already doing miles more than those larger spaces in terms of making sure people are safe or at least safer. And that’s been a really interesting thing. They’re already doing quite a lot to make sure that we’re safer. Perhaps don’t feel it, we perhaps don’t get the PR spin on it that we should be getting, but they are doing quite a lot. So this just complements what they’re already doing. But yes, in terms of paying for it, when I was creating this, I didn’t want the burden to once again fall on you. You know, you’re sending an image, you deserve to be safe in that space. You deserve to be safe regardless of your income. You shouldn’t have to upgrade an app to be able to send us something. You should be able to just live freely on the Internet and know you’re safe. And if something goes wrong, you’ve got the systems there to back you up. So we didn’t create it as an app, we didn’t create it as a join now and get 10% off. Is nothing like that. At no point will the victim in this case ever be charged for harm reduction, harm mitigation, or cleaning up after the fact. We still have some work to do in around understanding what kind of provisions we can provide can we cover their legal fees if this goes to court? How well can we cover that journey right to the very end, until that user is happy and settled that they’ve got the best care they could? We’re still working that journey out, but the intention is to take away the 300 pound a month that some sex model, sex work, adult creators and models are paying to these content removal platforms. They just shouldn’t be paying. They really shouldn’t be paying. Do you know what? I know this sounds crazy. I really want to disrupt this market because there are a lot of people who are earning a lot of money on content removal when that content shouldn’t have even been there in the first place. And we’re paying as a victim to have that removed. It just seems bizarre to me and

Jenny: it feels very prescient to me and my community. You know, I guess my community could be under a big umbrella, which you could call trans cross dressing. And we’ve done a number of surveys in the past with the community and what we’ve discovered is that the younger people are much more free. You know, they’re living in a world where you can go, well, today I’m male, tomorrow I might be female. And everybody says, brilliant. Nobody. I mean, it’s not that. It’s obviously not that easy. But compared to, you know, my generations, elder millennials, Gen Xers and beyond, where it was an absolute. No, no, like, you’ll be shamed to high heaven for having those thoughts. But what we found is that now we’re later in life people, for whatever reason, maybe, you know, my testosterone is less in my body, so the feminine aspect of me is more at the forefront. Whether it’s because I can see the end of the tunnel. I’m like, well, if not now, when? I don’t know. But there is a large movement of people who are now saying, I want to fully express myself. And online is obviously one of those spaces where you can do that. But I still think there’s an enormous amount of fear that if I share it, then even if I share it privately, it might well end up somewhere that I wouldn’t want it to be an image. Angel is directly going after that problem. Not in a totally watertight sense, but in a. In a broad, you know, you’re a lot more secure than. Than previous.

Madeline: Yeah, I feel like we’re perhaps. Maybe I’m speaking just from my experience. Yeah, it’s the only experience level I can speak from. I find that my sexuality and my expression is. Well, I kind of don’t care anymore what you think of me. So I’m just going to go and have fun. So when people shame me for, for what happened to me and they do, they say, well, why did you share these images? You know, you got yourself in trouble there. You chose to be a victim. I hear you. All right, yeah. This factually would not have happened if I didn’t share those images. Can’t I exist in a way that makes me feel great and feel safe and is perfectly legal? Why am I the one being shamed for doing something wrong when I’m perfectly within my rights to express myself and have fun on the Internet? And that’s what I wanted to keep. The importance is that why should the behaviour of the person doing no harm, no wrong doing be adjusted? Why should we change the way that we’re doing things when we really need to stop the person who is continually doing this kind of harm? We begin to build a profile on them and we say, excuse me, you happen to have been involved in an incident on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Can you explain to me why this profile is being built of you? And if we can prove that this is a systemic issue with this person, we’re going to block your access to this site so you can, you don’t continue doing any more harm. And that is the right course of action. That is a, that is appropriate, it’s proportionate and it is reducing harm. It is allowing people the freedom to express themselves in a safe and consensual way.

Jenny: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. And it kind of leads nicely into, you know, the broader conversation about sex workers. And if you take it even deeper, just the notion that, you know, we’re all animals and we have varying sexual needs and proclivities and it’s absurd to shame anybody for expressing their own sexuality in a way that feels right for them. If everybody’s consenting and no laws are being broken and, and I don’t understand why there is such hang ups around it. And like yourself, I’ve been on my journey for two, three years now, where I decided I’m going to start. I put myself into therapy because I knew there was this part of me that was unexpressed and I wanted her to be expressed. And so I started tiptoeing out, first through erotica, then built a website and Instagram and, and the podcast. And I’m now telling everybody in my life and I’ve not had a bad response yet. I usually get really, you know, show me. And there’s a 15 minute conversation of giggles and shock and horror, all in a nice way. And then it turns into, so what time are they going to the pub? And it’s done and it’s over and nobody really cares. Or people are a bit like, oh, that’s interesting, but I really don’t care. And like yourself, I’m getting to the point now where I’m thinking it’s time to kind of just like, the best way for me to hide is in plain sight. Now it’s like, just go, here’s everything. Like, I can’t be. I’m much more powerful if I just put it all out there. But I also recognise that that doesn’t work for everybody. I’m very lucky. I have a partner who understands and she’s fully supporting. I’m blessed in that way. But not everybody is in that position. And then that speaks to this really strange social thing of. It’s almost like one in a hundred people are very noisily offended and therefore we all have to go along with that. When it feels like the vast majority of people don’t really care and it’s like, you do you. I might not want to see it, but you know, you do. You have fun. And why we seem to be led, even at a governmental level and social level, that we shame people for having fun. Like enjoying your. The one thing that you’ve been given. If you believe in God, he gave you a body to enjoy, why would you be shamed for enjoying it? No matter what you do, so long as everybody’s consenting and it’s legal. I don’t understand it.

Madeline: Yeah, it does make you sort of go, let’s just not be so serious, perhaps. And like you, I go into spaces. And I suppose it would be the same if you’re a doctor or a lawyer or a hairdresser. You. You talk about your special interest subject or the thing that makes you passionate or your hobby, and you say, this is what I do, this is who I am. And someone will go, oh, you know, for me, they say, oh, well, I’m rather kinky myself. And I think, oh, this is great, we’re having a conversation now. You know, a hairdresser, we would say, oh, yes, well, I’m a hairdresser. Oh, what do you think of my. There must be. For every role, every job, every hobby, every interest, there must always be this beautiful little connection and conversation that people then have of, oh, well, I tried tennis once, or no, I don’t do that. And I love that. It’s human connection, its absolute Finest. This is what makes me unique, this is what makes me feel great and I want to share that with you. Let’s have a little moment of bonding and then, oh, what time’s the pub open? Let’s go. It’s great, it’s great. Otherwise we all just exist in this kind of faux LinkedIn polish of this is why I’m perfect. And it’s just boring, isn’t it boring? This is why I feel the status quo. I don’t want to live like that.

Jenny: Yeah, I think, you know, you’ve hit on one of the important words, which is connection. And again, particularly in my community and my generations, that connections never existed. And online gives the opportunity to have that connection and, you know, my face. Not sorry. My Instagram, I built up just over Christmas to 45,000 users and I was getting thousands of comments on videos and many of them were just expressing a kind of joy that somebody out there was being a voice for this feeling they had inside them that they locked up for years. And, you know, so I get into conversations with these people sometimes, you know, in an alter ego character. So they, you know, it was role play sometimes on a more kind of personal level where we talk through the challenges that they’re facing. And then of course, Instagram shut us down for violations of I don’t know what, because most of what we were doing was pretty vanilla and certainly didn’t stand out from the crowd. But again, it speaks to that weird kind of conservative nature of some platforms, some businesses, and a reflection of a very noisy, tightly wound group of people who are afraid of offending. I don’t know who they’re afraid of offending. And yeah, it’s all very strange to me.

Madeline: It’s bizarre, isn’t it? I was having a conversation this morning, it was a roundtable at the European Commission around Digital Safety act and how that has landed and the feedback and my questions. Well, I have many questions, but my one question was how can we encourage a societal understanding of freedom of expression whilst simultaneously being shadow banned and taken down for that very expression? And how is the Digital Service act going to manage that kind of the double edged sword of be free but not too free. They didn’t respond, but I’m sure they will in time.

Jenny: I’ve heard you speak very loudly about advocating for sex workers, which I fully, fully support. Let’s get everybody paying tax and doing it as a proper business and fully protected and insured and all of that stuff. What is your feeling about how we can be more supportive of that that community and what they contribute to the world and how can we support them? How can we make it better?

Madeline: I think any conversation that we’re going to have is ultimately going to and should lead to decriminalisation, which will, I recognise, lead to further regulation. And I, I feel personally and I can only speak from my experience, I don’t speak for all sex workers. Regulation is difficult, it’s going to be hard, but it should be welcomed because a regulated and in above board industry is easier to exist within. You can have a bank account, you can have children that don’t get investigated by child protective services simply for having a parent that is a sex worker. When we exist under decriminalisation, we exist in a space that is safer and healthier and that’s healthier for sexual expression, but also livelihood, for violence against women and girls, for the acceptance of identity and rights. So any conversation should always hinge around decriminalisation.

Jenny: So let’s dive into the tech and how it works because it’s fascinating. And when I was reading up about it, I remembered a storey. And I don’t know if this is true, but it sounds true, but apparently QR codes were originally created by the American military and they were printed on the side of tanks. So that if an American tank pointed its turret at an American tank, a QR code would say, no, no, don’t shoot, we’re American. And that existed for ages. It was just built into the kind of camouflage pattern and nobody could see it. And then somebody found out about it and obviously they had to abandon the technology because it kind of tipped the enemy in a battle. But effectively that’s kind of what your tool is doing, not with QR codes, but it’s injecting some, some kind of digital magic. How does it work?

Madeline: Yeah, I really hope that storey is true. I, I really hope because that sounds great. I love that. Yeah. It is kind of the same thing. Yeah. When you order food at a restaurant, you scan the QR code on the table and they bring the food to you, isn’t it? It’s just magic, isn’t it? It’s wonderful. I do miss the interaction with the server, but it is wonderful. You know, you, you’ve got this tiny piece of code that links through, through the Internet and suddenly you get what you want. And it’s kind of similar to that. It’s, it’s a small piece of information that is, I learn all these tech words because let’s face it, you’re a dominatrix, you know, you Know, you know, a certain amount of acronyms and things but Christ, we’ve moved into, you know, I heard on the call with the European Commission this morning, I heard MFF and I thought that is not the abbreviation that, that I think that is, I still don’t know what it is. So hexadecimal signatures is the wording that I’m going to use. We have this system that translates user data into unrecognisable signatures like a very strong password as it were. And then when we provide that information to the platform of origin, so let’s call it our image sharing Sourci platform, we say we’ve had an incident of harm on your, on your Sourci platform. Here is the code, the string of numbers and letters that makes absolutely no sense to anyone else that relates to this sharing incident. Would you please go ahead and decode that. So then on their systems entirely privacy preserving, they then look into their internal systems and go ah, right, okay, this hexadecimal code references Joe Bloggs over there and that’s how we can identify, whilst preserving privacy, we can identify the user behind a certain image or video. And it’s really, really important that I stress here. It’s not determining the origin of the original sender. It’s not to prove that you own that piece of artwork or prove the authenticity of this NFT or anything like that. It is simply to prove who should have been looking after it at the time and it’s device led. So there may be incidences and ways around it of saying ah, what Officer, I had my device taken. My device was stolen on the Friday and this happened on the Monday. Of course you know this, this was, this could never have been me. But what we do is also create a profile. So if there have been let’s say five or six incidences of image based abuse or copyright infringement happening on one platform and it’s the same hexadecimal number that’s coming up and it’s the same user. We can create a profile and create a pattern and we can say yes Joe Bl, I appreciate that your device was still on Friday. However, this has been happening every week for a month. And we can see that, you know, your defence is kind of, is kind of weak there because that is the number one defence. It wasn’t me, I had my device hacked into, I had my account hacked into. But when we provide signatures that can show session based data and access time frames, that’s when we can really pin down when and where that harm was happening. And you build a case against that person and then depending upon the nature of the crime, that because we are dealing with a very complex system of perhaps it’s copyright infringement, perhaps this is purely a revenue stream for this, this infringer. Or is this sent to your grandmother in the worst terms to be able to humiliate you as an individual, to dox you as a sex worker or as a trans identifying on the weekends, whatever that harm may be, were existing in this really broad scope of harms. And it’s very hard to define how this is going to move, especially considering that law at the moment does not define an image that is commercially created as even possible of being used in a criminal sense. Even though the majority of experience we’re hearing from sex workers and adult stars is that these images are being used against them to, to harass and dox. And yet you cannot ring the revenge porn helpline and say, please help me, I don’t know what to do. So we aim to provide that middle ground of is it revenge porn? Is it, you know, in the classic term, is it a harassment? Is this a criminal case or is this someone who is reproducing your work for commercial gain? And usually it’s, it’s. That’s the first. What we are looking to find is how can we benefit the people who come to us and say help, I need you. We are going to shape our report and remove and support system as to the needs of the users that come to us. So I don’t really, I can’t share right now what that system will look like because we’re only embedded in two systems in two places. And the reports that we are coming through are coming through at sort of small rate at the moment, but we know that will grow. And so if does show us that the majority of cases that are coming through are proven to be a criminally commercial image, is used in a criminal sense to harass, and it is intimate image abuse, then I think it’s about time that as sex workers we lobby for government and we say you need to put into law into the Online Safety act that any use of an image, regardless of its origin, regardless of its commercial use in the first instance, but any use of that to harass is absolutely harassment. And it is not, oh, I’m copyright infringement. You know, perhaps you should go through DMCA and have it taken down, which always fails anyway.

Jenny: So I just like to put my cards on the table as well and express why I think what you’re doing is so very important and Why? I think you’re the perfect person to do it. You know, it would be one thing if this technology and platform was being invented by some tech bro out in Silicon Valley for cynically commercial reasons, but you’re in it because you’ve got skin in the game, you’ve got history and passion, you’re an expert in the field and you obviously, very profoundly, deeply care about what you are doing. And that’s why I think it’s so important that as a community, if we can get behind you and support you, then we really, really should. And again, I’ve watched so many of your videos now and I saw one where you kind of expressed yourself as an accidental entrepreneur. And I don’t think there’s anything accidental about that. I think you’re the very definition of a brilliant entrepreneur who’s taking their passion, their experience, their knowledge, found a problem, got a bit of courage and anger around that problem, and leveraged that into, into working 20 hours a day for God knows how long and still how long to come. And you know, probably for a pittance if you’re lucky. I mean, I started up enough small businesses myself to know that effectively it’s yourself on your own for a very long period of time. And then if you’re lucky, suddenly the whole thing explodes and everybody says, of course you’re a success and you’re like, you’ve no idea what it was like for the last three years. But you know, I just wanted to just acknowledge the work that you’re doing and the importance of the work and how it can help all of us live fully more expressed lives online and protect our communities. And as I said at the beginning, before we started the recording, I’ve got an 11 year old son and you know, I have worries, not now, but in four or five years time he might find himself taking photos or getting photos and how to allow him the freedom to find his way in the world while simultaneously keeping himself safe. And yes, that’s a conversation we have to have and we have to make sure he understands all the implications. But to know that there is a further safety net that is embedded in all the platforms. And I think that’s the goal, that’s the point for me of this, this conversation is to stimulate the community into going to that page on your website to say, ask Facebook, ask Tinder, ask, you know, all the platforms, please could you use this technology because it will make my experience safer and I can be, I will use your product even more if you do this.

Madeline: Yeah, that’s what we’re finding. We’ve done some case studies of people who have had their content shared in a commercial sense, but also their intimate images in a private sense. And everyone just says, wherever this goes, I go. Wherever you have image Angel, I want to be there. I want to support a platform that can see how this works. But firstly, I just want to say thank you for your really kind recognition of the work that I’ve put in. I had little tears growing as you were saying that. I must admit, I’m a very emotional person. I feel so very deeply when I’m in a. In a, you know, like a relationship or a setting or a session with someone, I feel so intensely. Emotions just feel big for me. So when I go into spaces that are, you know, celebrating female founders, I feel so intensely, like I don’t deserve to be there. So intensely because I. I don’t know what I’m doing most of the time. And people say to me, you mustn’t ever say that. You mustn’t ever say you don’t know what you’re doing. Well, I. I’m sorry, I’m not going to lie. I know what I’m doing simply because I have such a wonderful team around me. I have such an incredible team, and I feel capable of doing. The things that you have said appeared effortless, but they really aren’t because I’ve got the team behind me. I’ve got an awesome WhatsApp chat group of. Of sex workers and adult content creators, and they got my back. And I feel like I’m not doing this for me. I’m doing it for me and everyone else, and that’s. It’s so tiring. I’m so poor. I’m so exhausted. I’ve also lost a lot of weight because I just forget to eat because I’m so deeply embedded in what I’m doing. But it was really nice and very emotional to hear your thoughts and kind words on that, because there are points where I think, can I carry on? Can I? I’m exhausted. You know, I. I barely see my kids, my husband. I’m a. I’m a ghost of. Of a wife. The support network and my team are incredible, and it is to them that. That I must show super appreciation because they really do keep me going in. In these moments. Because I know you say I’m, you know, not an accidental entrepreneur, but I didn’t set out to be a tech entrepreneur. I didn’t even set out to do anything. I just set out to make a bit of money. You know, doing sex work, that’s what I set out to do. But just like you are. I have a son and he’s around the same age. And when my content was first shared non consensually, my heart just broke because I knew, fine, this has happened and it hurts like hell for me, but what’s he gonna experience? Why do my choices now feel like they could impact his future life? What kind of mother does that? I felt awful and it drove me to the absolute depths of existence. And I thought this is, this is the darkest moment of my life that I’ve made a decision to enter an industry knowing its pitfalls and I’ve put him in the line of fire potentially. And I knew then I was going to do something to change the status quo. Because by the time he gets to secondary school and we’re not far off now, I know that it is entirely possible that someone can send those images to him and his life becomes just as impacted as my life has been. And the poor guy, honest to God, poor guy, my daughter as well. I’ve been telling them before they could even speak, before you could even comprehend what words were, I have been saying to them, I need you to know I’m sorry for what you may experience when you grow up, for the harm that was done to me may come to you. And I have been trying to express to them how hard I am working to make their life safer for the harm that was done. And I know that we’re almost there. It feels like we almost are. Because if a platform that hosts content is ever in a position that it is, is involved in a case where a child has been sent imagery of a mum’s work or you know, their parents job doing something that is saucy, salacious, or you know, perhaps they’re doing something on the weekend, it is so important that the person responsible for that is taken through the system and given the accountability that they deserve. Because that is the crime here. The crime is not expressing yourself. The crime is not earning in a way that is consensual and is fit for you. The crime is not existing as the child of a sex worker. The crime is the person who puts the harm the in motion and that is the person who non consensually shares. And I am so proud to be able to say, even if the worst does happen. And he, he’s shown this and my daughter has shown these imagery, these images, even if that happens and they say, mom, I’m so hurt. I say, I know and I tried my best I did my best and I managed to make an impact. But you are strong because I have empowered you to understand this is not a crime of our crime, this is not our shame to carry. It’s the shame of the person who would, who would put a. Or a sex worker in a position where they don’t have that privacy, dignity and safety.

Jenny: Everything you’ve just shared is exactly why we should support you and why your platform will be a success. Because of the heart and the passion and the meaning and it’s just such a privilege to share this conversation with you. And just on a side note, I work in a new storey industries and quite literally you are talking about the very definition of classic storeys, about how the hero is given a challenge that they absolutely don’t want to do because it’s so far outside of their experience and their knowledge and the terror of doing it, and yet they know they have to go do it and they step into the unknown. And I’m sure you’ve had these feelings too. Like at times you feel like you’re running into the dark with your hands in front of you, just hoping to God there’s not a brick wall there. But you still keep running into the dark because you know the answer is in the dark, where the unknown lives and the challenges that you don’t even know exist yet. And that’s what makes you a leader. That’s what puts you on those big stages where you feel like an imposter and everybody else on those stages is obviously feeling like an imposter as well. They just, maybe they’re bluffing better. So, yeah, so I’m just such a privilege to share this conversation with you and I just wanted to acknowledge the courage and strength that has brought you to this position. And if I can be part of the movement in my own small little way, then I’m right beside you. Shield up, sword at the ready. I feel it.

Madeline: I really appreciate that. I really do. It has been quite tough going, let’s say, public about this. There was actually a point where I, I knew that I needed to be public with my name if I, if I wanted to have a, a real bank account and a real business that that was really representing. I had to, I had to go public with it and, and off the back of that, Christ, it’s got even worse, you know, it’s now really associated with my, from my full British name on the passport, you know, my, my government name. It’s all out there and it’s tough so to have your support and the support of all, you know, all, like I say, the, the WhatsApp chats, the groups, the messages I get, like, go on. It does not go unnoticed, it does not go unfelt. It’s, it’s hard out here. I’m doing my best and I’m, I’m trying.

Jenny: Amazing. Okay, well, I think we can probably bring this to a close now, but I wanna, I wanna close on two very, very similar specific call to actions. So if you’re part of my community and listening to this podcast, I would dearly love you to do two things. First, just on a personal level, go to Madeline’s Instagram, which you’ll tell me the handle in a moment and leave a lovely comment and say something amazing and then do it again two weeks later. And then do it again two weeks later because it’s really hard to, to keep going when the odds are really against you. And perhaps on a more important note, and I’m going to hand over to you, Madeline, is where can we register our desire that the likes of WhatsApp, Facebook, Instagram, and then the more saucy platforms all support imageangel, Because I know that there is a specific process that people can do.

Madeline: So if you go to imageangel.co.uk request you can pull up the page that will give you a really simple step by step guide to send an email or a tweet, I’m not going to call it hooks a tweet to the platform of your choice. And it’s really important that we raise our voices and go, hey, there is a solution to this and it works in sex workspaces, it works in private spaces. You can have this system on your child’s nursery app so that a photo of them with the visiting farm animals or whatever they get up to that they don’t tell us about, you know, is protected from some other parent sharing that where it shouldn’t be. It’s really important that this is across all sectors and industries and we’re ready and we’re open to scale. We’re ready to scale now. We’ve built, we’ve developed, we’ve invested, we’ve cried and we’re ready to scale now. We’re already protecting half a million people on an adult platform. We’re ready to grow and we are ready to represent and we are ready to shine. And I need your backing. So, yeah. Thank you so much, everyone.

Jenny: Thank you so much for this amazing conversation. It’s been a real privilege and I cannot wait to see how the whole platform blossoms and how hopefully your life turns around with that and becomes a little bit more stable. Maybe, you know, hire a pa, have somebody to help you in the mornings, afternoons and evenings. And yeah, I look forward to seeing how it all evolves.

Madeline: Thank you so much for your support.

Jenny: Thank you. Thank you girls for listening to my podcast. I really appreciate you listening all the way through to the end. If you’ve enjoyed what you’ve heard then please consider going over to my we*****@********en.com and join my mailing list. Then you’ll get information about all of my very very naughty things that I send out on a regular basis. You’ll also get access to a couple of my free storeys. You can either read them or better still you can experience them as an audio journey where I will directly encourage you to dress up for me in your favourite costume and do very, very, very unspeakably naughty things. I can’t wait for you to send me photos of that experience with me. So please do join up the jennyraven.com.